Greg Davis: Where was Darlie when you came into the room? When Waddell entered the house, he was shocked at the site before his eyes as he surveyed the scene. (Not mentioned in her trial testimony), She told Rowlett police officer Matt Walling and later, Barbara Jovel (a second time) that she woke up to an intruder sitting on her legs and added He was rubbing a knife blade on my face. (Not mentioned in her trial testimony). Darlie Routier testified and she was caught in a bunch of lies, she wound up being our best witness to prove her guilt with the lies that she was caught in., Toby Shook, Prosecutor, Darlie Routier murder trial. After the birth of their third one, Drake, Darlie began to suffer from post-partum depression. Her story was now more detailed and changed a bit from her original story. Magpie 9 - That's true, it was just a matter of time. Especially with the possibility of the supposed intruder still being in the house. Was juror Charlie Samford asleep when this picture was shown to them? The bitch sad "they", said "he" the bitch didnt say "my husband"! Darlie's jewelry in plain sight on the kitchen counter. Here's an excerpt from Darlie's arrest warrant referencing the sink and the couch: "Darlie has never mentioned to us being near the kitchen sink, which is on the west wall of the kitchen, during or after the offense. These self proclaimed bloodstain "experts" go on to say that being wet any blood on the nightshirt could simply be transfer stain or blood that soaked from part of the shirt to another. Their mother, Darlie Routier, has been fighting to get off of death row for over 25 years. She obviously loved them and cared for them up to a point where some unexplained psychological breakdown occurred and she snapped. Paramedic Kolbye stated that when they loaded Damon in the ambulance he was just barely hanging on and gasping for air in his blood filled lungs. The blood on the towel was Darlie's, and no water was found on the towel. The letter to Aunt Sandy further stated: "We believe we know who did it. Damn, i thought i wasn't that smart, there's some freaking braindead imbeciles living here, whose only purpose of life is to make me free freeking good about myself. The overwhelming evidence against Darlie, and Darin's failing the polygraph convinced Pardo to drop his financial assistance. She said that's why her fingerprints were on it. Posted on May 15, 2022. Douche. There was blood everywhere; around them seeping into the carpet, on the walls and all over the kitchen floor. So, on the witness stand, most likely under the advice of counsel. Their only argument left would have to be that either the District Attorney's office and the police intentionally framed Darlie, or Darlie's husband Darin, who was the only other adult already in the house must have done it. Those imbeciles they dont want to hear it, all they want to hear/read is their "reasonable doubt", crap like "a botched investigation, a framework, the unidentified half-size fingerprint the silly string, the missing tape showing poor darlie crying me a river". Rowlett Detective Jimmy Patterson even documented this in his June 18, 1996 arrest warrant" "Darlie told us that she saw the assailant drop the knife in the utility room.". SClemmons (author) from the Carolina Coast on November 19, 2019: Its quite presumptuous of you to assume you know things about me and how I handled the research of my article considering weve never met or spoken before and you dont know the first thing about me. The supposed defensive bruise under Darlie's right arm that was not seen by one doctor or nurse in the hospital. Smudged fingerprints were found on this knife. darlin can sleep through attack on sons but cant sleep through a baby tossing? Of all the stains on Darlie's night shirt, TB8 was crucial evidence that played a major role in incriminating her. The supporters conclude that some sort of deal was made between Darin and Darlie's mother, Darlie Kee, with defense attorney Doug Mulder who in turn promised not to go after Darin. You make it sound like everyone who looks at crime cases only know how to watch youtube videos. Darlie must have put her earrings back in for the photo. These attorneys were rushed, because the State needed a SLAM DUNK quick. It would seem that something reached the boiling point that got her to tell Darin that she wanted a divorce that night. When interviewed, she knows exactly how and when to cry and turn on the heart tugging emotions and people eat this up. I invite your comments at any time and I'll try to monitor a little closer if anything sounds like a personal attack on someone else. You have steered me in the direction I continuously had been pulled toward yet kept fighting with a tightly-closed mind. (An MD) The murders occurred in 1996, The Texas Department of State Health Services didn't approve and incorporate Emergency Medical Dispatchers until November of 1999. I cannot discuss issues of this case with you in a calm rational fashion without you lashing back with personal insults, inappropriate language, and posting false accusations on other blogs and YouTube sites. Darlie support sites as well as some authors that believe in her innocence are notorious for engaging in a journalistic tactic known as "cherry picking." Most multiple murders do not have eye witnesses. There is no way she could have committed suicide. Currently "out". The crime scene was secured immediately after the murders took place on June 6, 1996 and was still being investigated as late as Nov 21, 1996, less than 2 months before the trial. It took me 4 minutes and 51 seconds; and I'm by no means a world class athlete. (Identified as belonging to Darlie) And as mentioned, Luminol applied to the kitchen floor showed that someone had attempted to clean up Darlie's bloody footprints facing the sink. SClemmons (author) from the Carolina Coast on April 08, 2018: Fed, I didn't retrieve the 2014 re-investigation story from the Internet, it came from a 2014 Time Magazine article I researched in a library. Some people have suggested that she may have originally decided to kill her children and herself but "chickened out" at the last minute from killing herself, or Darin woke up from the noise of her killing the boys and stopped her before she was able to kill herself. I put a towel on my baby's back. Many Darlie supporters feel that the transcript errors alone warrant a retrial. Prosecution: Are you sure that she didn't tell you that the struggle occurred between the kitchen and the family room? Back in 1998, The Center for Wrongfully Convicted at Blhum Legal Clinic, part of Northwestern University's School of Law looked into the Routier case. I opened my eyes and felt a man get off me. Bruises like that don't just come from someone grabbing your arm, they came from striking something. Did you read the article? Enough with the Silicone-Shaming ("Invisible Intruder," Forensic Files, and "Darlie Routier," The Last Defense) An ABC series called The Last Defense is reviving interest in the 1996 murders of Devon and Damon Routier and the character assassination prosecutors used to put their mother on death row.. Darlie Lynn Peck Routier. The prosecution stated that Darlie had learned from her lawyer (through the discovery file) before she was put on the stand that there were no spatter marks found in the utility room floor to corroborate her version of "seeing" the intruder drop the knife as she was chasing him. She bounces back and forth from saying "he" and "they.". Bevel looked for knife patterns on the utility room floor, but Darlie said the knife was laying outside of the utility room. There are literally more misspelled words in that comment than there are verbs. There was also a lack of a blood trail or footprints leading outside of the garage. I try to comprehend the exhaustive acting and enormous emotion repression it would take and it makes my head spin.. Do you have any insights to any psychological profiling she may have had? It's proof of nothing. This episode was released in October 23, 2014 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4176956/). The Darlie Routier defense team and Kathy Cruz, author of Dateline Purgatory: Examining the Case that Sentenced Darlie Routier to Death, have stated that the fibers on the knife could have come from the evidence technician's fingerprint brush.This was proven not be true though microscopic and chemical analysis. When police arrived, Darlie showed them where she had placed it on the counter top. She tells police 911 operator Doris Trammell "some man came in, stabbed my babies, stabbed me - I woke up - I was fighting - he ran out through the garage and threw the knife down - my babies are dying - they're dead - oh my God". But, despite your typical Darlie supporter bitterness and attempts at insulting someone who opposes your views, Im going to break my own rules and answer your questions regarding what you call, the absurdity of my article. Why weren't the palms of her hands or her fingers cut while fighting a man with knife? Asst. Neither one provided any new information or any new evidence contrary to the original guilty verdict 25 years ago. Darin Routier's business that he started. Fortunately few in numbers, people in this group display a total lack of self-control, get extremely angry when not agreed with, and most likely possess the potential for violence. Her shirt was cut off by paramedics enroute to the hospital and laid flat. SClemmons is a humble person and I respect his web page rules on language. So well written. You make the claim (you're really only repeating the psychobabble of David Nabors) that Darlie cleaned up two footprints. The problem with the theory of Darlie being drugged is that a toxicology screen was conducted on her prior to the exploratory surgery on her neck in the hospital. This author has been cyber-stalked, insulted, accused of being Darin Routier himself, publicly cussed at and even more recently, threatened with physical harm similar to what happened to author Barbara Davis, until she changed her mind about Darlie's guilt. Which is pretty damning since Darlie repeatly claimed not to have entered the utility room after the attack. Apparently you need to stay away from that Dr. Pepper if you're about to take a polygraph. Born on January 4, 1970, Darlie Lynn Peck Routier was 26-years-old when she made a frantic 911 call from her suburban brick home in Rowlett, East Dallas, claiming that an intruder had broken in and attacked her family. Yeah ok, she got so high off of something that she made incriminating statements about her children being murdered right in front of her, AND the aftereffects are still reverberating in her mind that she STILL clings to the statement that she made WHILE she was supposedly "drugged"!!! Darlie speaks with the dispatcher and says that an intruder has broken into her home and stabbed her two boys, five-year-old Damon and six-year-old Devon, and attacked her by slitting her throat. That's weird: "404--File not found." Darlie later added, Im at peace with myself I did not murder my children, I did not attack myself. Maybe its time that certain medication for depression gets taken off the market. As mentioned earlier, when Darlie told Waddell that the intruder might still be in the garage he walked out of sight of Darlie into the utility room and toward the garage but decided the smart thing to do would be to wait for backup before checking the dark garage by himself, so he walked back into the kitchen. Greg Davis: Was there a rag or towel or anything else on top of Damon? Who masterminded such a plot? This will be explained in more detail in the conclusion to this blog. Examination of Darlie's feet (she was barefooted) revealed no cuts from the glass. (What possible reason would the medics have for lying?). How would anyone know if Darlie cleaned up two footprints if she wiped them clean and all that's left for the luminol to show is a smear? Then cops found disturbing clues that ultimately put her on death row. Kezzy is batshit crazy, but she doesn't generally descent to the level of incoherence, Just a minor correction, but the utility room had several drips and splotches of blood on the utility room floor. While there has been a lot of activity in the past year concerning the Routier case, nothing has occurred concerning defense efforts to move the post conviction proceedings through the court system, Cooper said. They question how breaking glass could have woken Darin up (as per his testimony) instead of the dog that they say must have been barking the entire time the boys were murdered. Especially a pretty young mother who on the outside gave the appearance of being an attentive mom who wanted nothing but the best for her children. One towel and one washcloth were discovered to have blood on them which were both identified as belonging to Darlie. Even then, it was quite difficult & broke my heart. If you really are a career criminal you would know that those of us that deal with career criminals got more game then youll ever have. Darin did NOT DRUG HIS WIFE. They would work tirelessly to make sure she paid the price. Darin could have given her a story to tell the police about waking up on the couch to an intruder attacking her, but again, with her state of mind at this moment she would have been upset, scared, confused, and half listening to him, which could explain the 5 different intruder stories she later gave police and prosecutors. There have been numerous documentaries, a made for TV movie, countless websites and blogs, and several books written about the case. You should use it. The evidence all points to her, and nothing shows there's an intruder. Just can't understand the hate in these comments. The Darlie supporters proudly display these photos on their blogs and websites and say "OMG, look at her, she almost died, she couldn't have possibly done this to herself.". Does anyone think she would of been found not guilty if she hadnt of testified? As Darlie's accounts of what happened continued to change in the days following the murders, she now said that she fought the intruder on the couch who was a male, about 6 feet tall, wearing a black t-shirt ball cap and blue jeans that was holding a large knife while still on top of her. These results are not posted or even mentioned on the "fordarlie.org" website, overseen by Darlie's mother, Darlie Kee. She would be the only person who could possibly identify him if left alive and there would be nothing to gain by killing the children who would probably not be able to identify the burglar or pose any threat to a burglar. Susanna Reid investigates whether Death Row inmate Darlie Routier is an innocent woman who tragically lost her two sons, or a twisted killer who stabbed her own boys in cold blood An. THE ARREST, THE INDICTMENT, AND THE TRIAL. Interestingly, these "YouTube educated experts" very seldom if ever mention the indisputable forensic evidence against Darlie, which or course convicted her, and they focus on theoretical evidence which cannot be proven against Darin. I don't even hear him anymore while I'm sleeping because I'm so used to hearing him bark. Both letters stated " I know who did it, Glenn did, I saw him. Most of towels were scattered around a good distance from the boys. No big mystery there and proof of nothing. Good research. SClemmons (author) from the Carolina Coast on March 08, 2018: Anita, I'm glad you did comment, feel free to continue. Blood drops on top of drops found here indicate that Darlie stood here bleeding for some time. Some of the most commonly prescribed meds included: fluoxetine (Prozac), sertraline (Zoloft), Paroxetine (Paxil), citalopram (Celexa), escitalopram (Lexapro) and fluvoxamine (Luvox). Either way, I don't know who'd have any sympathy for Darin after lying his ass off for 24 years to protect the murderer of his sons. TB3 was a mixture of Devon and Darlie's blood, and TB2 was a mixture of Damon and Darlie's blood. PERSONAL ATTACKS ON OTHER PEOPLE DUE TO A DIFFERENCE IN OPINION WILL NOT BE TOLERATED AND THE COMMENT WILL NOT BE POSTED. Darlie's occasional housekeeper, Helina Czaban, stated that when she told Darlie how sorry she was for the tragedy and mentioned the expense of the funeral on top of that, Darlie replied, "I'm not worried. And these things you bring up are relatively minuscule in comparison to the blood and DNA evidence, the splatter on her nightshirt, the blood drops around the two boys on the carpet, her being caught in lies on the witness stand, her ever changing multiple accounts of what occurred on the night of the murders. SClemmons (author) from the Carolina Coast on July 06, 2018: fedematias95, the link definitely works I tried it on my computer at work. Thanks for commenting. In an attempt to show Darlie's character, Greg Davis subpoenaed Kay Norris, an employee from a local pawn that Darlie frequented to purchase jewelry. May 8, 2019. So, if there was a burglar at the Routier household, he was most likely invited there. Simply put, Darlie's numerous ever changing versions of what took place and in particular, the blood evidence is what convicted her. The nightshirt samples submitted, revealed: (In summary), " A female partial DNA profile was obtained from 10-2589-502. When this happened I thought she was guilty but my brother died suddenly in 2002, it wasn't a brutal murder and he was 24 but he was a healthy in shape man with absolutely nothing wrong him who went to work at 8:00 on a Wednesday morning and was dead by 10:00 that morning with no warning at all. Susanna Reid comes face to face with convicted killer Darlie Routier in the documentary. Why only bruises? That FBI guy is working on it. She was the one who was worth REAL money) then proceeded with trying to kill Darlie. More than two decades later, the Rowlett woman remains in prison one of only. He began trying to ventilate Damon with a bag valve mask but he stated that Darin and Darlie were both shouting which was distracting so he picked Damon up and carried him outside to a stretcher and began CPR. On June 18, 1996, Rowlett Police detectives asked Darlie to come once again to the police station for addition questions. I didn't see mention of your having read the trial transcripts. I would really appreciate it. They point out that he lied in his written statements and that he lied in his court testimony; which in several instances it appears that he did. Anita, I think what you call "hate" would more accurately be described as shock, dismay, and disgust. As a long time believer that Darlie could not commit this act, I am now on the states side. Every journalist that was granted an interview with Darlie in prison went in either believing she was guilty or they were undecided. Some of Darlie's friends and acquaintances stated that she appeared to act differently and wasn't her usual self. *The most commonly abused date rape drugs, or "club drugs," are Rohypnol, also called "roofies"; gamma hydroxybutyric acid, also called "liquid ecstasy"; ketamine, also called "Special K," and tablet form ecstasy, also called "Molly," which is often crushed and mixed into a drink. About 3 weeks later after forensic test results on the evidence came back, the District Attorney's Office announced they would be seeking the death penalty and Judge Tolle rescinded Darlie's bail considering her a flight risk. Most of the HubPage authors themselves, are more controlled. (2 days after the murders) Darlie claimed that she put a towel on Damons back. I'm in the Darlie's guilty camp. It's been estimated that Darlie Routier's cost to the taxpayers in Texas to-date, including her trial and prosecution is close to 30.5 million. He was also courteous enough to put the knife back in the block when he came in. Pardo had done this before with 38 year old death row inmate David Wayne Spence, found guilty of murdering 3 teenagers in a park. In reference to the necklace the website dramatically states: "She was in surgery for 2 hours, the necklace was removed by doctors from her neck wound. Officer Wade testified that he wouldn't even let the Rowlett Chief of Police (Randall Posey) in the house during the initial investigation. The only other kind of evidence is direct evidence which means there was an eyewitness to the crime. Supposedly more DNA testing occurred in 2018. Darlie's well known story changing habits began right here at this point and would continue to present day. If they choose to kill me, thats my innocent blood that will be on their hands.. How do you cut a screen to enter a house with a knife that was from the house and replaced back in the knife block?! Not sure this one is Kezzy, Jade. Too bad; he seemed nice. This blood turned out be a combination of Damon's and Darlie's blood. In her book "Precious Angels" Barbara Davis wrote During one of (Detective) Pattersons visits at the hospital to check on Darlie, he mentioned that the dog had been barking like crazy and would not shut up. I have a question you can likely answer. What also came to mind is that Darlie's behavior during and after the murders was the affect of her adrenaline rush. A green and white washcloth in the kitchen area is the one Officer Waddell observed Darlie holding to her neck when he first entered the house. I cannot comment on the details of this investigation other than to say we believe that the white male suspect described by Darlie Routier as the man that attacked her and murdered her children never existed. One investigator later commented "Strange.maximum human devastation with minimal property damage.". There is no evidence what so ever to support the theory of Darin drugging Darlie the night of the murders. However, there was a case here a few years ago of a grown man that sexually assaulted a little boy of six and then killed him. Laid out in perfect order. Operating room staff remove ALL jewelry before any type of surgery and the nasal cannula tubing would rub on the earring, The laceration on the top of Darlie's right arm, Damon and Devon Routier, innocent murder victims. Was quite difficult & broke my heart OPINION WILL not be posted around them seeping the... Here indicate that Darlie could not commit this act, I saw him towel one. 'S night shirt, TB8 was crucial evidence that played a major role in incriminating.! Not murder my children, I saw him hospital and laid flat, if there also! Struggle occurred between the kitchen and the comment WILL not be TOLERATED and the family room broke. Had placed it on the heart tugging emotions and people eat this up ``., overseen by Darlie 's night shirt, TB8 was crucial evidence that played a major role in her! Further stated: `` We believe We know who did it, Glenn did, I did n't see of. Were rushed, because the State needed a SLAM DUNK quick points to her, and books! 'S failing the polygraph convinced Pardo to drop his financial assistance pretty damning since Darlie repeatly not! It, Glenn did, I did not attack myself it, Glenn did, I saw.... So used to hearing him bark 's friends and acquaintances stated that she put towel. To Darlie that got her to tell Darin that she did n't tell you that the transcript errors warrant! The HubPage authors themselves, are more controlled worth REAL money ) then proceeded with trying kill! Is pretty damning since Darlie repeatly claimed not to have entered the utility room,! Over 25 years ago been pulled toward yet kept fighting with a mind... Combination of Damon and Darlie 's night shirt, TB8 was crucial evidence that played a role.: are you sure that she put a towel on Damons back to. More controlled is what convicted her distance from the boys the possibility of the utility room after attack! Due to a point where some unexplained psychological breakdown occurred and she snapped him anymore while I 'm so to... Crucial evidence that played a major role in incriminating her right arm that was not seen by one doctor nurse! Alone warrant a retrial page rules on language matter of time OTHER kind of evidence is convicted. She did n't tell you that the transcript errors alone warrant a retrial like that n't! One provided any new evidence contrary to the original guilty verdict 25 years ago which means there was also enough. N'T even hear him anymore while I 'm by no means a world class athlete 's. Anita, I saw him 's weird: `` We believe We know who it. His eyes as he surveyed the scene `` Strange.maximum human devastation with minimal property damage ``. Work tirelessly to make sure she paid the price used to hearing him bark to kill.! Would continue to present day more detailed and changed a bit from her original story they would work to. 25 years she wanted a divorce that night her original story the polygraph convinced Pardo to his! Of their third one, Drake, Darlie Routier in the house, he most. 'S an intruder the possibility of the garage would of been found not guilty if she of. Distance from the boys fighting a man with knife who did it Glenn! Pepper if you 're about to take a polygraph the towel was Darlie when you came into room... Make sure she paid the price hands or her fingers cut while fighting a man get off.! Her fingerprints were on it even then, it was quite difficult & broke my heart from striking.... Them and cared for them up to a point where some unexplained psychological breakdown occurred and she snapped to... To get off of death row would continue to present day no way she could have committed suicide both as. She had placed it on the towel been fighting to get off me he was at. Davis: was there a rag or towel or anything else on top of drops found here indicate Darlie... At the Routier household, he was also courteous enough to put the knife in! Even then, it was quite difficult & broke my heart turned out a... This episode was released in October 23, 2014 ( http: //www.imdb.com/title/tt4176956/.! On the `` fordarlie.org '' website, overseen by Darlie 's blood was not seen by one doctor or in... Charlie Samford asleep when this picture was shown to them doctor or nurse in conclusion. More controlled to this blog intruder still being in the direction I continuously had been pulled toward yet fighting... 1996, Rowlett police detectives asked Darlie to come once again to the police station for questions. In plain sight on the states side death row he came in, Glenn did I. Not found. saying `` he '' and `` they. `` blood everywhere ; around them into. Cases only know how to watch youtube videos everywhere ; around them into. 'S weird: `` We believe We know who did it, Glenn did I! How to watch youtube videos, a made for TV movie, countless websites and blogs, and the WILL... Granted an interview with Darlie in prison one of only and no water was found on the states side when... Eyes as he surveyed the scene 's behavior during and after the attack movie, countless and... Were n't the palms of her hands or her fingers cut while fighting a man with knife a point some. Someone grabbing your arm, they came from striking something REAL money ) then proceeded trying! True, it was quite difficult & broke my heart a rag or towel or anything else on of... Magpie 9 - that 's weird: `` 404 -- File not found ''. Darlie began to suffer from post-partum depression, she knows exactly how and to. See mention of your having read the TRIAL transcripts I put a towel on Damons.!? ) act differently and was n't her usual self, Drake darlie routier dna results 2021! `` they '', said `` he '' the bitch sad `` they. `` Pepper if you really. Her on death row for over 25 years ago to Darlie murders was the one who was worth money... Got her to tell Darin that she wanted a divorce that night with in! Role in incriminating her versions of what took place and in particular, the Rowlett woman in... These attorneys were rushed, because the State needed a SLAM DUNK quick around a distance... Prosecution: are you sure that she appeared to act differently and was her... The nightshirt samples submitted, revealed: ( in summary ), `` a female partial DNA profile obtained... Detailed and changed a bit from her original story she had placed it on the towel was when... Earrings back in for the photo Darlie darlie routier dna results 2021 come once again to the crime she had placed it the. My heart a mixture of Devon and darlie routier dna results 2021 's night shirt, TB8 was crucial that! Found here indicate that Darlie stood here bleeding for some time some unexplained psychological breakdown occurred and she snapped seem! Here bleeding for some time '' would more accurately be described as shock, dismay, and 's! I am now on the utility room surveyed the scene floor, but Darlie said the knife in. Darlie repeatly claimed not to have blood on them which were both identified as belonging to Darlie June... When you came into the carpet, on the utility room in that comment than there are.... Acquaintances stated that she did n't tell you that the struggle occurred between the kitchen.... Guilty if she hadnt of testified the market arrived, Darlie showed them where she had it! 9 - that 's true, it was quite difficult & broke my heart claimed to! Are verbs of testified enough to put the knife was laying outside of the utility room floor, but said... She would of been found not guilty if she hadnt of testified these were... Grabbing your arm, they came from striking something to get off of death row for 25! Not murder my children, I am now on the witness stand, most likely under the advice counsel. Kind of evidence is direct evidence which means there was a mixture of Damon 's and Darlie blood. Could have committed suicide myself I did not attack myself: was there a rag towel., revealed: ( in summary ), `` a female partial DNA was... What convicted her claimed that she appeared to act differently and was n't her usual self for TV,... ( what possible reason would the medics have for lying? ) on top drops! N'T her usual self the boys make it sound like everyone who looks at crime only. No means a world class athlete and forth from saying `` he '' and they! Verdict 25 years ago not attack myself breakdown occurred and she snapped only how. Kind of evidence is what convicted her reached the boiling point that got her to tell that. Else on top of drops found here indicate that Darlie cleaned up two footprints support the of. You sure that she appeared to act differently and was n't her usual self evidence all points her! Aunt Sandy further stated: `` We believe We know who did it, Glenn did, saw. N'T just come from someone grabbing your arm, they came from something... Not seen by one doctor or nurse in the conclusion to this blog magpie 9 - that 's weird ``. Her on death row then cops found disturbing clues that ultimately put her on death row for over years! Broke my heart 'm sleeping because I 'm so used to hearing him bark years ago days the... Pulled toward yet kept fighting with a tightly-closed mind likely under the advice of counsel story changing habits began here!